The uncommittable crime

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christopher
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The uncommittable crime




This morning's headline, "U.S. Missiles Strike Deep Inside Pakistan for the First Time," got me thinking about this horrible business of strike first / ask later and the increasing acceptance of striking outside war zones.  Last week it was a wedding party that we blew up -- I think we've done about six of those now; and the crime these people committed?  They are alleged militants.

Now, ponder for moment, how does one commit the crime (which it must be since it is met with sudden and unannounced death) of being an "alleged militant?"  Well, you can't do it alone.  In fact, you aren't really involved (though I suppose you could perhaps help the crime to come about);it is someone else who makes you an "alleged militant."

Now, as we begin strikes deep into Pakistan, with whom we have no war, and who does not want us striking there, it becomes increasingly clear that our federal government does not care about humanity, the rule of law, or the detrimental impact of its actions on foreign relations.  In short, it is a loose canon, killing on a whim and excusing the natural consequences of its actions as collateral damage.

For discussion:

  • When will they start using missile strikes here in the US to keep the dissidents at bay?
  • Are we really moving in that direction?
  • Are these “blind” strikes in other countries any better than strikes here at home?
  • How can we resist this tyranny?
     

 

rww
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When will they start using

When will they start using missile strikes here in the US to keep the dissidents at bay?

Ever heard of Waco? The ATF, FBI, and US military used tanks instead of missiles. 76 civilians died including 21 children.

christopher
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I wondered if somebody might

I wondered if somebody might not bring Waco up... but what is the public opion on Waco?  I remember hearing about it as a kid, and seemed everybody thought the Koresh followers were just crazy and the government did what they had to.  Are people awake to what really happened there?

rww
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People heard what the government wanted them to hear

People heard what the government wanted them to hear. Not much has changed has it? Here is an article by Dr. Ron Paul about Waco that puts things into perspective.

Aunt Judy
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Well, I might be wrong, but

Well, I might be wrong, but the specific strike you are talking about was coordinated with the Pakistani military; and, the house that was struck was the point of origin of an attack on American troops in Afganistan.  So this one incident is not a good example of your point.  I do agree tho that some of the others did not seem as clear cut.

christopher
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but we're killing suspects!

I don't know what is going on behind the scenes, but the Pakistani government is talking like they are NOT pleased with the US striking within their borders.  But irregardless of whether or not the attack was coordinated with the Pakistanis, or whether or not it really killed bad guys is irrelevant. The problem is that these “precision” operations kill innocent people, and at best, when the missile is launched, the targets are merely suspects. Why are we killing suspects!?  This cannot be morally or ethically justified.

 

 

rww
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According to the


According to the report that Christopher linked to from ABC news the Pakistanis denounced the attack as yet another "grave provocation". They are pretty upset, but are hesitant to do anything more than complain because of all the aid we provide. But what the h### are we doing in Afghanistan anyway? We have tens of thousands of troops inside their borders. They have a right to defend their country.

 

christopher
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In spite of all the

In spite of all the antiwar sentiments, there seems to be a lot of public support for at least some of what we are doing in Afghanistan and Iraq.  I really would like to understand how folks justify this.  I cannot find anyone who can defend the position without finally falling back on "well at least they're not coming here!"

 

Aunt Judy
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The Taliban had taken over

The Taliban had taken over the country.  Girls were no longer allowed to go to school, and strict 'religious' behaviors were being forced on a lot of people.  The hunt for Bin Laden is our primary reason for being there.  Unless you forget he was behind an act of war on September 11.  Our biggest mistake was not doing something after Charlie Wilson helped the mujihadeen defeat the Soviets.  The Afghans had no weaponry to speak of and I still cannot believe the Soviets just went in there purposefully killing men, women and children.  But after the Soviets were defeated I guess the country could have used some help with infrastructure, education, etc.  But we did not provide it.  So, their main source of income is the poppy field.  We are not there to kill thousands of people on purpose.   I saw a comment on I think it was the English Al Jazeera web site where a comment had come in from an Afghan who supported what was being done there.  I believe it is all very complicated.  In an ideal world we would not be there; we have a lot of bridge-building to do.  But it is hard for me  to hear criticism of our own troops who I believe are trying to do what is right; compare that with what Al Qaeda and the Taliban have done and do:  they purposely kill innocents by strapping a bomb to their bodies and walking into a public place.  Where is your outrage over that?

 

Aunt Judy
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I read at least two reports

I read at least two reports that stated the Pakistani military coordinated on that specific attack.  We are not there fighting the Afghans.  We went there to get Bin Laden.  This is not a war between the US/West and the Afghans.  We are not attacking the Afghan people but fighting Al Qaeda. 

rww
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Apparently the




Apparently the majority of Americans want out of Iraq and Afganistan. Obama was elected primarily not only on the strength of his pledge to end the present war, but also the implicit promise to refrain from involving us in any further hostilities.



Although I doubt if there will be any real change in American foreign policy.

rww
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How many years have we been




How many years have we been hunting Bin Laden? And how does destroying Iraq and bombing








Afghanistan have anything to do with finding him? Also, they may be our troops but they are killing








innocent people.

 







 

 

Aunt Judy
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Obama wants to divert troops

Obama wants to divert troops from Iraq to Afghanistan.  I would like to see us out of Iraq too.  I don't believe we should have ever gone there.  But there is quite a mess there now.  And we have responsibility to help put things back together.  I don't like the idea of pushing democracy on countries.  And I feel our State Department has absolutely failed us by not understanding these cultures.  I read a book titled The Case for Democracy.  The biggest point I thought the author made was that if a country is actually leaning toward democracy and there is proof then if we can help them we should.  But there are many ways of doing that.  The idea of spreading democracy before a country/culture is ready or really wants it is ridiculous.  But I think that is what we have tried to do.

christopher
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Al Qaeda and the Taliban are

Al Qaeda and the Taliban are terrible indeed, if what we understand about them is true.  I have no intention to defend them, but they have been responsible for for fewer deaths and much less terror than we have.

You mention our troops who are "trying to do what is right."  I don't have any reason to disagree with you, but we have to remember that Al Qaeda and the Taliban also think they are "trying to do what is right."  Just because we think it is right, doesn't make it right.

My concern is not with the soldiers who are fighting --  I feel sympathy for them and their families -- but rather with those who are sending the soldiers off to evil wars.

In regards to providing infrustructure and education in these down-and-out nations: I think this is a great idea.  Let's form or find a charity, and start doing this.  As history shows, we cannot depend on government to be much help.

christopher
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I think we owe the Iraqis a

I think we owe the Iraqis a lot.  We have bombed, murered, pillaged, raped, abused, tortured, and oppressed them for many years now, but if I was the victim of this nightmare, I wouldn't want the evil culprit to stay and make it all better.  I would just want them to leave.  Perhaps citizens, like you and I, can help pay for the evil our country has done there, by promoting charity work there.

christopher
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Couldn't agree more with

Couldn't agree more with your statement: "This is not a war between the US/West and the Afghans."  The Afghans are NOT the enemy, but we are attacking them and they are dying.

Estimates vary, but sources indicate that our response to 9/11 has killed 200 times as many people as the 9/11 attack itself did.  We argue that we had to go there so they wouldn't come here, but what we accomplished was the equivalent of another 200 9/11s.  Al Qaeda is just a small evil compared to the USA.

 

Aunt Judy
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There are not too many

There are not too many places where you can get a death count in Afghanistan.  But what I am seeing is that most of the people dying are militants (the majority), Afghanistan security forces, coalition troops, and yes there are civilians too.  But we are not attacking the Afghan people.  And Al  Qaeda is more evil than you seem to understand.  I don't see Al Qaeda sending help and supplies to Pakistan after an earthquake, or sending medical supplies and help to areas of Africa battling Aids, or providing docotrs to organizations like Doctors without Borders.  But I did see Al Qaeda fly two planes into two buildings on US soil, killing mothers and fathers (like you) and other people who by the way probably never fired a rocket or killed anyone.  They did not go after our military or a site that had just attacked them.  They just went for symbolic structures and innocent people and then danced in the streets and reveled in it.  The fight is not with the Afghans but with Al Qaeda which by the way is apparently growing and spreading.  I do believe we should stay out of the middle east as much as we can.  And I do believe the US has done a poor job of intelligence as well as, again, our State Department has not done its homework and tried to understand the culture and religion of the middle east.  And, yes, the US has certainly done some things that it should not have.  But comparing the US to Al Qaeda and saying they are a small evil compared to the US does not seem like a valid argument.

babs
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 just a minor thought, I

 just a minor thought, I have many but am trying to stay out of this banter, but  I'm a little surprised that Christopher is using "Main Stream Media" such as ABC to support  this point...

christopher
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You and I are using

You and I are using different metrics.  I was comparing the number of people that we have killed in the war on terror to the number killed in 9/11.  By this measure, we're about 200 times worse than Al Qaeda.  You are measuring charity and intent.  I would argue that intent is not a valid measure since it is unrelated to outcomes and if we use this metric, it invalidates your second measure: charity -- where the US only acts when it is in its own best interest.  Yes, the US does provide charity, and I'm not aware of Al Qaeda doing so.  But by this measure, an American citizen who has not givento charity ranks as evil on the charity metric as Al Qaeda does.  And are you suggesting that if Al Qaeda did some charity work that they could make up for the civilian deaths they cause with their political statements?  I beg to differ with this argument.

christopher
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Excelent point.  It would

Excelent point.  It would seem that my "radical" views would exclude such biased news sources as ABC.  :)

Actually ABC news is helpful.  It can provide facts to some extent, and it provides the public with their view.  I don't hold ABC or any other mainsteam news site in high esteem, but I am interested in knowing the truth, so I'll listen to any argument and weigh it for value.  Sometimes helpful things come from surprising places.

Also, folks tend to more readly accept reports coming from mainstream sources.

Aunt Judy
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Where do you get your

Where do you get your numbers?  What would you have had us do after 9/11?  Just sit back and take it?  And you are the one who started the comparison of apples and oranges.  Al Qaeda is a terrorist organization, not a country.  So we really cannot compare them.  Therefore I don't think you can justify that the USA is more evil than Al Qaeda.  Just because a person does not give to a charity does not make them evil.  Most people who don't give to charities are not strapping bombs to themselves and killing innocent people either.  Looking at Al Qaeda they have no redeeming qualities.  They only kill, and they purposefully kill innocent people.  If they had their way you would be a Muslim.  As it is, in their eyes you are an infidel.  So you are looking at the overall number of people killed after 9/11 because we went after Al Qaeda and Bin Laden.  What do you include in this?  I still don't understand your lack of outrage at what Al Qaeda does. 

rww
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What would you have had us

What would you have had us do after 9/11?

Well lets see:

Attack a country that had nothing to do with 911 and kill hundreds of thousands of people.

Funnel as much money as possible to military contractors

Use the main steam media for propaganda

Lie about the whole thing at the highest levels of government

That'll show Bin laden and them no good Persians.

christopher
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Hmmm... I'm not sure you

Hmmm... I'm not sure you are understanding me... and perhaps I'm not understanding you.  Anyone want to jump in and help sort this out? :)

What Al Qaeda has done is terrible, evil, heartless, and wrong; but what can we do about it?  After seeing what happened in 9/11 what we should all be thinking is, how can we keep more people from dying?  How can we save lives?

I think one good approach would be to secure our borders, and stop meddling in the middle east.  That is, make it harder for terrorists to get here, and stop provoking them.  If we catch terrorists here, we try them in court and punish them accordingly.  If terrorists are operating abroad, we would rely on strengthened international relationships to help bring them to justice.

Contrast this with what we did. Contrast the crime with the response to the crime. Al Qaeda's evil does not justify our response. As a citizen of the US, I feel both responsible for and ashamed of what my country has done. Once we've stopped killing people, we will find ourselves in a better moral position to criticize other evil doers.

An interesting side note: if we had a world democratic government, Islam would probably be the state religion as they are the majority.  Also, it is important to remember that the radicals are not representative of Islam.

rww
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In case you haven't noticed

In case you haven't noticed neo cons are jumping ship and and the msm are sharing the life boats. They can't keep up the charade forever.

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